James Gaffigan is general music director of Komische Oper Berlin and is in his third season as music director of the Palau de les Arts Reina Sofía in Valencia. He specializes in opera, having led the Met’s 2023 production of “La Bohème.” But he also conducts symphony orchestras, regularly working with the New York Philharmonic, Cleveland Orchestra, Philadelphia Orchestra, San Francisco Symphony, National Symphony Orchestra, Los Angeles Philharmonic, Detroit Symphony Orchestra, Toronto Symphony Orchestra, and many others. Engagements in Europe have included Bayerische Staatsoper, Opéra National de Paris, the Zürich Opera, Vienna Staatsoper, Staatsoper Hamburg, Dutch National Opera, and the Glyndebourne Festival.
Gaffigan led the Boston Symphony Orchestra (BSO) in a program of Clyne, Mozart, and Mahler on Sunday, August 11, at Tanglewood.
I met with James last week on the Tanglewood campus, following his rehearsal of Gustav Mahler’s fourth symphony with the BSO. Our conversation was wide ranging, with Gaffigan expressing his views on myriad operatic topics, as well as the current state of classical music in the U.S. and abroad. Also, he had quite a bit to say about the musicians of the BSO, their Music Director Andris Nelsons, and the secret behind their unusual working relationship.
Having studied at Boston University Tanglewood Institute and the Tanglewood Music Center (TMC) (not to mention New England Conservatory), Gaffigan has been a lifelong admirer of the BSO and even took bassoon lessons from one of its members. So he knows the band. But nothing prepared him for what he experienced the first time he stood before the BSO musicians with baton in hand. In fact, he was “completely shocked” by what he felt and heard.
EDGE
On Sunday, you will conduct the BSO in Mahler’s fourth symphony. I’ve heard people refer to it as ‘Mahler light.’ Is that an apt nickname?
GAFFIGAN
I think it’s Mahler celebrating the past. It’s Mahler celebrating the intimacy of classical music that came before him but using his own language towards the future. So I think it’s like a caricature of him. It’s Mahler light in the sense that it’s not loud all the time, but it’s extreme. The dynamics are extreme. And what Mahler does better than anyone is have people play extremely soft and extremely loud at the same time, and it creates an otherworldly sound where you don’t even know which instruments you are hearing. So there’ll be a solo violin, tuned higher, playing fortissimo, an oboe playing pianissimo, a flute pianississimo, and cellos playing mezzo piano. And combined, you have a very eerie sound.
EDGE
How do you balance that?
GAFFIGAN
You balance it by following the rules. And Mahler is so meticulous—actually ‘neurotic’ is the word I like to use because he was an extremely neurotic person. He was a conductor, so he was constantly revising his music. He would rehearse with the Vienna Philharmonic, or whoever, and then he would say, ‘Okay, that didn’t work: softer.’ And then: ‘I’m gonna exaggerate the crescendo here.’ So Mahler, more than any composer I know of, offers the most information. And he also could not let things go. He was a perfectionist, and he knew that musicians read what’s on the page. They won’t have time to rehearse as much as he’d probably like. So he knew that musicians, great musicians like the BSO, are very influenced by what they see on the page. So if there’s a tradition from the past with a pencil marking, they’ll follow it, because they’re on the page. So I think Mahler was extreme. Also with the wording, he’s like, ‘Don’t rush here, not too fast, make sure to keep it moving, but don’t rush.’ No other composer writes like that.
EDGE
Yet he refused to use metronome markings.
GAFFIGAN
Never, never, never. But I find that extremely interesting. He was a control freak to a certain degree—with musicality and expression—but he wasn’t a control freak with tempo. And you can see that the direct link is Mengelberg’s recordings. They’re the oldest recordings of Mahler’s symphonies. The rubati are so extreme, I didn’t even know how it was possible. And I then I found out it was the 143rd time the orchestra played Mahler for him. So, you know, he really taught it note for note, every little curveball, and then that recording was made. Because it’s not humanly possible with a modern orchestra to have that flexibility unless you have 20 rehearsals.
EDGE
Twenty? Then how can the BSO come even close to playing at that level with only two rehearsals?
GAFFIGAN
Well, this is my shock. You know, you’re the first person I have even talked to about this. I’m gonna call my partner Marta when we’re finished here. This is my first time working with the BSO. I’ve worked with the Met, New York Philharmonic, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh—all the great orchestras in the United States. And I’m completely blown away by the professionalism and flexibility of this band. They’re doing ‘Rite of Spring,’ Sibelius 5—you know, they’re doing three or four programs in a week. So I thought today it would be a half-energy thing. But they are all delivering at the highest level. And I’m—I’m completely shocked and amazed by it. Really! Because I was expecting them to have their own way of playing it, like Andris probably did it with them the last time. And I thought, ‘Well, we’ll have fun, we’ll make music, and whatever.’ But they are wonderful, and everything I dream of doing—and show with my hands—they’re following. And I said to one of them, ‘This is incredible!’ And they’re like, ‘Yeah, because you’re clear! You’re clear, and you are musical.’
But that’s my job. That’s every conductor’s job. Maybe other conductors have had the same experience, but I’m truly amazed by the musicianship of this orchestra. And I knew they were good. I went to [New England Conservatory (NEC)], I went to Tanglewood, but I didn’t have the—I don’t know—I wasn’t a professional musician back then; I was a student. So now, going to all the orchestras around the world, in Europe and America, I am completely amazed by this orchestra. And I don’t know if it’s something in the air, but they are so kind, so good, so flexible, and, most importantly, so musical, even though they’re exhausted. They’re completely exhausted. So I am truly moved. So moved! I expected maybe 50 percent of what just happened. Wow. This was—I’m really looking forward to the concert now! At first it was just butterflies in my stomach. I was nervous to see these people that I knew since I was 17, 18 years old. And now, you know, I’m in front of them. Like bassoonist Richard Svoboda. I know him well. (My old bassoon teacher, Richard Ranti, recently retired.) So seeing these people’s faces—and then the young guys, like cellist Mickey Katz, I went to school with him, and seeing bassist Benjamin Levy, who I went to NEC with. So, you know, all these players are just a blast from the past, and then to be on stage with them is like a flashback. You’re catching me at a very emotional moment. I’m really looking forward to this.
EDGE
I’ve heard people talk about your ‘congenial’ style. But don’t all conductors coming out of TMC have a congenial style?
GAFFIGAN
That’s a good point. I mean, I think everyone from the younger generation, let’s say under 55, we all grew up in a more congenial type of environment. There are no more of these maestros—dictators—anymore. A few are still alive, and it’s still very much their way or the highway. But the younger generations? I’m not young anymore, I’m turning 45 on the day of the concert, actually. But, you know, I feel all of us, Yannick Nézet-Séguin, Gustavo Dudamel, who is here today, Klaus Mäkelä—we’re all people who like people, and we like the musicians in front of us. So we have this chamber-music mentality. We know how to be strict, but we know how to have a laugh and also be flexible. I think the secret to being a great musician is being flexible and compromising. Like in any relationship, you know? If it’s a friendship or a romantic relationship, if you’re uncompromising and inflexible, you might as well be alone.
So I very much enjoy the give and take, and that’s why I love opera so much, because of the give and take. You know, you’re accompanying a singer. Like Elena Villalón this week—she’ll join us on Saturday for rehearsals. She’s extraordinary. I discovered her very early on. So I’m very excited to have her here with me for my debut and for her debut.
EDGE
There’s a mystery about the BSO that maybe you can help me solve: How is it possible for Andris Nelsons and the BSO to be in the 10th year of their ‘honeymoon’ period? This must be unusual. Maybe you could explain to the world how this can happen.
GAFFIGAN
Okay. So the orchestra likes two things as a whole. They like to be trusted, and they like to be left alone. Then, when you trust an orchestra and you leave them alone, you need to know how to get in their face and help, when they need help, and then leave them alone again. I’m only talking about the great orchestras, not the B-level ones. I’m talking about orchestras like Bavarian Radio, Boston Symphony, New York Philharmonic. These orchestras like to sound good. They like to sound well rehearsed.
But if you’re a control freak, you will never have a honeymoon period, not even a good week with these orchestras. You have to trust and breathe with them and not get in the way when it’s flowing. You need to help them along at certain times. You need to get in for transitions and be clear. But Andris is a musician’s conductor, and I like to think of myself like that too, and Yannick and Gustavo.
I think the BSO appreciates that Nelsons is knowledgeable, but he also knows how to read the room and feel the musicians as a group. He doesn’t get in the way. He doesn’t destroy anything.
EDGE
OK. So conductors have changed their demeanor over the decades. But for that to do any good, don’t the musicians need to change, as well? Their mindset, I mean.
GAFFIGAN
Yeah. The musicians have changed. If you look at what’s happened in the world in the ’40s, ’50s, and ’60s, there were horrible people as music directors. Great musicians, but pretty horrible human beings. Fritz Reiner was a nasty guy. He was nasty to the Chicago Symphony members. George Szell would stare out the window to see who took their instruments home to practice. People were scared for their lives and their well-being under these kinds of music directors. Toscanini was terrifying. He was a monster. And when these conductors made mistakes, no one said anything.
Times have changed. Now orchestras are overprotecting themselves with the union because they needed to. Musicians were being abused for time, for pay, all these things. So the unions are now extremely powerful, which I think is a good, safe thing for a musician these days.
So now the conductors, we know we can’t get away with that stuff anymore, and we would never do that. Why would we want to terrorize a musician? You cannot get a musician to play well by terrorizing them. It doesn’t make sense. And when you look at Andris, he’s a sweetheart. He’s a good guy, and he knows when he makes a mistake. He’s the first one to admit it. He’ll laugh over it. And they love him for that, you know? I don’t know him so well personally, but I was happy to see them on tour in Lucerne. Andris is a human being, and I think the whole orchestra appreciates him for that.
EDGE
Are you going to hear Gustavo Dudamel conduct the National Children’s Symphony orchestra in the Shed tonight?
GAFFIGAN
I’m sorry I won’t get to see him conduct. He’s wonderful, and he’s the nicest person. And he’s under a lot of pressure right now, you know, for obvious reasons from Venezuela and stuff. But he’s a good person, and he has survived media like no other conductor has survived media. Maybe only Leonard Bernstein. So he’s a good person, and he deserves all of his success.
EDGE
When did you study at the Tanglewood Music Center?
Gaffigan
I was at TMC in 2003.
EDGE
Do you think you could you have won the Georg Solti International Conductors’ Competition in Germany had you not studied at TMC?
GAFFIGAN
I give TMC a lot of credit, because that was my practicing ground. So was Aspen. I went to Aspen for three summers before Tanglewood. So I was 19, 20, 21 at Aspen, and 22 here as a fellow.
Many conductors can’t practice, because you need an orchestra to practice. You can’t go and practice from a piano and learn to conduct. You need to be in front of people. So TMC allowed me to be in front of a great young orchestra and have the mentorship of Kurt Masur and Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos.
Also, for modern music, Robert Spano was a big help to me. In Aspen, it was David Zinman at the time, along with many other guest conductors coming through. So I had people kind of protecting me from management and getting hired too soon. And I got to hone my craft and make my mistakes in a safe environment.
And then my first professional engagement was with the Cleveland Orchestra. David Zinman invited me to share a program with him at Blossom. So I made my conducting debut when I was 20 or 21 at the Blossom Music Festival. And then I started getting hired professionally in America by orchestras like the Fort Worth Symphony, San Antonio Symphony, and then working my way up.
EDGE
What do you want an audience to get from your reading of Mahler Four that they’ve never gotten before?
GAFFIGAN
I think it’s clearly a world of fantasy, unlike any other music he wrote. And it’s right from the beginning. You hear these sleigh bells, and you think, ‘Is it Christmas? What is it? A sleigh ride? What is this?’ And you’re in this crazy world. You’re in a crazy orchestral world, and you feel like you’re dreaming from the beginning. Things come in and out of focus quickly. And I expect the listener to be taken away from their lives, their normal lives.
I hope they shut off their phone and sit there. They can close their eyes or watch the orchestra occasionally, or watch the stars if it’s a clear night, or look around at nature while getting lost in this music—completely lost. And then, in the third movement, it’s some of the most beautiful music he’s ever written—some of the most beautiful music we have in Western music. To have listeners get completely lost in this music is my biggest goal.
And then you’re woken up by a soprano voice telling you what a child experiences in heaven. And if you’re not moved by that, you better check your pulse. Because I advise the audience to know what is coming, read the text quickly, the translation, and then don’t follow. Just know that there’s a young child saying, ‘Don’t worry, it’s amazing here! This place is incredible! And, by the way, the music is like no music on Earth.’
If you shed no tears at that moment, you better check if you’re alive. I think every listener, if they’re paying attention, will have a very emotional experience hearing this piece. It moves me to tears every time. I want listers to be lost, and I really want them to come out of their lives.
Really, this piece is one large meditation, like ‘Tristan and Isolde.’ It’s really special, and it’s unlike any other symphony from Mahler. I think the fourth symphony works the best as a whole—it and the sixth symphony. They’re not the best works, but for me they hold together. I find the fifth symphony to be lopsided somehow. I find the seventh symphony to be incredible material, but very strangely strung together. The eighth is too massive and crazy. The ninth is incredible, too emotional. But for some reason the fourth and the sixth, they’re Mahler at his best and most compact. He doesn’t wander too far. He stays on the path from beginning to end.
EDGE
You’ve expressed an interest in attracting new listeners to classical music, opera in particular. Is attracting new audiences at odds with attracting new composers of opera?
GAFFIGAN
That’s an interesting question. I think they are two different things. I look at them completely separately. The mistake that some opera companies do, no offense to the Metropolitan Opera, who I think is a great company, but they do a new opera like ‘Fire Shut Up in My Bones.’ They attract a very new, different type of audience for that piece, which is a very good thing for the band. Suddenly, it’s filled with, let’s say, younger people and people who have never experienced opera before.
But the truth is, they don’t return to see the other stuff. So this is our big dilemma. If you have Wynton Marsalis performing with the Boston Symphony, you will have a whole other audience. If you have James Taylor, you will have a whole other. But rarely will they return to see a Mahler symphony. So this is my thing. In a city like Berlin, it’s easy, because people love culture there. It’s in their blood and in their bones. It came from their parents. And generation to generation, whether they have money or not, everybody knows the importance of culture in Berlin. It’s different in Valencia, where I work also in Spain, because it’s a very traditional audience. And it’s easy to scare away our audience members. So I have a challenge there. We program ‘Wozzeck,’ but then the advertising and marketing teams need to do triple the work they’re normally doing for ‘Aida’ or for ‘Bohème.’ And they need to get people to understand that ‘Wozzeck’ is a different language. It is a different language of music, but it’s very similar to any romantic music they know. The story is a human story. So we marketed it as a play, a human tragedy. It was a beautiful production. Word of mouth traveled, and by the end, we were sold out. We could have added an extra performance, because people went two or three times. ‘Bohème’ is the perfect opera, hands down, you can’t deny it. But with ‘Wozzeck,’ you will be touched even if you don’t understand the musical language.
EDGE
What’s your favorite theme from ‘Wozzeck’ that you like to sing on your way home after seeing it performed?
GAFFIGAN
Oh my god. There’s one about being poor people. [sings] The leitmotif he uses for ‘we are poor people’ returns over and over in the opera: upside down, sideways, every retrograde imaginable, and it haunts the whole piece. It comes over and over again. And whenever you hear it, it gives you pain, and you don’t know why. ‘We’re simple, poor people,’ and it haunts the whole thing.
And then you start to realize the genius of Alban Berg — and Wagner. He plants seeds in human beings we don’t even know are there. He plants them in our head, and we subconsciously take them in, and we are affected by them. Then they develop that. It’s incredible. It’s like Shakespeare with the English language. They’ll say something in the beginning, and they’ll come back and you’ll think, ‘I’ve heard this before from a different character,’ but it’s upside down, inside of—I don’t know. I love it. I love the genius of these people.
EDGE
You just sang a theme from ‘Wozzeck’ that I figured nobody could sing from memory. But you’re the conductor, and you know the piece. What about the rest of us? We walk out of the hall, and we have no tunes to take home with us, only the sound of murder ringing in our ears.
GAFFIGAN
Opera’s an experience, though.
EDGE
Okay, so opera is not only about tunes. But ‘Wozzeck’ doesn’t have any tunes at all—at least not any that an average listener could sing to themselves following a performance.
GAFFIGAN
But it’s a theatrical experience. ‘Wozzeck’ is perfect in the sense that it’s compact, it’s short. It’s only, I think, an hour and a half or something like that. And it flies by if you have a great production. This is when production is key. What’s happening on stage is key to the public staying involved.
I agree with you. When I first heard ‘Wozzeck,’ I saw a horrible production. What the heck is this? It was abstract… just pure abstract. The singers weren’t good; the acting was horrible; and the production was bad. I won’t say where it was.
EDGE
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?
GAFFIGAN
Yeah. Exactly. It was horrendous, and I wanted my money back. And I felt the same way about Schoenberg’s ‘Moses and Aaron.’ I heard Jimmy Levine rave about this piece, and I sat there, like, bored out of my mind. No offense to him, but I was bored out of my mind. Having said that, I heard Schoenberg’s ‘Pierrot Lunaire’ here at TMC way back 20 years ago. And you’re transfixed even though there’s not a single melody you remember. You’re transfixed by the words, the expression.
That’s the thing: expression in the music of Alban Berg and Schoenberg—all the Second Viennese School guys. They understood that expression was as important as melody. It didn’t take over the world, but it was extraordinary.
And I think of Gershwin—when you think about Gershwin and Schoenberg together, I love pairing their music together, because these two men adored one another and had the deepest respect for one another, but their music was so different. But when you program it side by side, you see similarities, actually. It’s really true. Wow! I do it with the pianist Kirill Gerstein. We combine a Schoenberg piano concerto with the ‘Rhapsody in Blue,’ the original version.
EDGE
In the standard operatic repertoire, you get a lot of singable melodies and themes. But not so much with contemporary opera. What does that mean for attracting new audiences?
GAFFIGAN
The modern composers I know that are composing opera are very tonal, actually. Kevin Puts, for example, he’s genius. Adès? Well, Tom Adès, in my opinion, is a great orchestral composer. The operas are so difficult. They’re very theatrical, like Berg. I’ve never seen ‘Exterminating Angel’ live. I’ve never seen ‘The Tempest.’ But what I hear from all the singers and the audience members is it’s very difficult. I think it’s rewarding for the orchestra musicians.
When I do a commissioned opera, I have to love their music. And I have to be convinced that the public is gonna understand what’s happening.
So to your original question, is attracting new audiences at odds with attracting new composers of opera? It’s a different genre, and it could be done in a festival environment like Aix en Provence, or—I don’t know—in the festival in Munich or something. But you’re gonna have trouble programming new works in another opera house.
I think that the secret to all opera houses and symphony orchestras is you need to gain the trust of your public. It’s something we did in Lucerne when I was there. You gain the trust of your public, and then they’ll take risks, and they’ll show up. And they’ll be very vocal. They’ll say, ‘You know what? I trusted you, James, and I came to hear Schoenberg. It wasn’t that bad.’ ‘Verklärte Nacht’ is one of the most romantic pieces ever written. Very tonal, very melodic. And then they say, ‘I’m happy I went.’ Or they say, ‘James, you really programmed a lot of Wolfgang Rihm, and in the end, I still don’t like him, but I understand why you did it.’ So you win some, you lose some. I think there’s a lot of modern music that’s important to program. But I don’t think it’s a way of capturing new audience members.
Like I said, with the festival environment, the festival mentality, people will come just to hear the wacky stuff. That’s a certain type of person. That doesn’t mean they’re gonna come back to hear a Mozart symphony.
EDGE
Are memorability and singability lost values in opera?
GAFFIGAN
No. I think it’s so important to go to a Mozart opera, a Da Ponte opera, and be singing Figaro’s aria or, you know, even in Don Giovanni, he makes fun of himself, of music from ‘Marriage of Figaro,’ because it became so popular, along with that of other composers of the time. That’s the joke that Mozart makes: These singable melodies that everyone loves to hear? In the end, it’s like bands that are one-hit wonders. It could be the worst thing that ever happened to them. They composed that one hit. Now, everyone wants to hear that one hit. No one cares about anything else. So singability is very important, but it’s not the most important thing.
EDGE
But if a piece of music is forgettable?
GAFFIGAN
Here is the weird thing with me. I remember hearing Pelléas and Mélisande by Debussy in the Paris Opera. It was an incredible production by Bob Wilson, and it had amazing imagery. I remember being moved from the first second to the last second. But I couldn’t remember a damn thing at the end. I couldn’t remember anything from that opera, but it was one of the greatest musical experiences of my life.
So explain that. I don’t get it. But it was beautiful watching the text and the singers and then move and sing in the orchestra … the textures in the orchestra…
No one remembers a theme except for conductors. Some of Debussy you remember. But then there’s some very strange pieces that you don’t remember. ‘Daphnis and Chloé’ by Ravel? Very memorable. You remember these huge climaxes and these beautiful melodies. Melodies of Mendelssohn go on forever. You love them. And I can’t remember a single melody. So I think it’s important; it catches you; and it’s a way of remembering that experience. But it’s not the most important thing. I think the most important thing is the experience in itself, the sounds washing over you, the emotions washing over you.
Because in ‘Wozzeck,’ when, at the very end, there is a young child on the stage left playing, and all the other boys are making fun of him because his parents are dead … and he just continues to play. And he’s, hop hop hop, riding his little toy. If you’re not moved by that—I mean, it’s really incredible theater with music underlying it. And I think movies are like that, right? Of course, John Williams is the master, like Wagner.
Wagner and John Williams are masters of the singable tune. You will walk out of that movie theater humming a John Williams tune, guaranteed. It’s the same with The Ring Cycle. They’re the kings of tunes, more than Mozart, more than Schubert. Why is that? I don’t know. Yet some of the greatest Schubert songs, I can’t even remember them now if you ask me.
EDGE
So what you’re saying is, it’s more important for audiences to remember the totality of the experience than any particular bit of ear candy.
GAFFIGAN
Absolutely. If you go to a circus, if you go to Cirque du Soleil, you’re just amazed. And right after the performance, you say, ‘my favorite was this guy that did that, or the girls that were upside down.’ But two years later, or even two months later, you just know it was a great experience. You don’t necessarily remember the details from it anymore.
EDGE
You said in an earlier interview that it’s important in a city like Berlin to ensure that your audience reflects the community.
GAFFIGAN
Yeah. But also New York City. I think every city.
EDGE
Do you think the audience of any major American orchestra reflects its community?
GAFFIGAN
That’s the problem. The dilemma I have with American orchestras is that their community is not really reflected in their audiences. And I say this about 80 percent of American orchestras. And it’s heartbreaking, because I grew up in New York City, and in my high school I was in the minority, the white kid. There were more Black, Latino, and Asian kids than white kids. And I loved being in that world, because everyone was so different, and everyone came from different socioeconomic backgrounds.
Multicultural living. Berlin is the coolest place for that reason—my first experience of multicultural living. When you go to the Komische Oper, the audience is made up of old people, young people, East Germans, West Germans. There are gay, straight, bi, trans. Every type of person living in Berlin makes an appearance at Komische, and they all coexist fine.
In America, I find that the Atlanta Symphony has more Black people living there than White, and there are no Black people in the audience. Maybe one percent, two percent. And that, for me, is an embarrassment. I think it needs to improve. And the way to do that is to make them feel welcome, make them want to come because there are Black people on the stage. Sphinx is doing an amazing job of developing diversity in American orchestras. But we’ve dropped the ball for a long time on this, and no one even talked about it until recently.
If a young African American kid doesn’t see any African Americans on stage, what does that have to do with them? You know what I mean? It’s kinda scary.
So for me, it’s a big problem in America, and it needs to be fixed. And the most important thing for everyone to realize is, it’s not gonna be fixed overnight. You know, people love quick fixes. They love Band-Aids. But that’s not gonna work. You need to gradually improve education. You need to get education to the people and make them feel safe in your concert.
There’s so much to do. And I’m happy people are talking about it now, but still they’re not doing enough.
EDGE
Are you interested in distinctly American operas?
GAFFIGAN
Oh, yes. I think ‘Porgy and Bess’ is a masterpiece.
EDGE
And everyone has heard of it. But what came after that?
GAFFIGAN
I think Barber’s ‘Vanessa’ is incredible. Carlyle Floyd is a forgotten American composer. All of his work is extraordinary, like ‘Susannah.’ But for some reason, we as Americans have a chip on our shoulder, as though everything from Europe is better. And we shy away from American music. I did myself. I was guilty of it.
When I was starting my career conducting the great orchestras around the world, they all wanted me to do American music. I said, ‘No way!’ But now I love doing American music with Bavarian radio, with my guys in Berlin. And I like returning to the Chicago Symphony to do American music, where I love it. And I think Barber is a master. I think Charles Ives is a master. And you could program his music alongside Mahler, alongside any European composer.
And the secret to these great American composers and operatic composers? They can stand on their own. They can hold their own among the greats of the world.
EDGE
Can you have authentically American opera without any jazz or blues in it?
GAFFIGAN
That’s an interesting question. I think so. Yes, I think you can. Think of people like Copland, like ‘The Tender Land.’ That’s not such a well known piece, but Copland and Barber have a very Americana sound that’s not jazzy.
EDWARDS
For some, it evinces cowboys.
GAFFIGAN
But for me, it’s open harmonies that sound like the open range. Bernstein used that sound in ‘Age of Anxiety’ and also in the slow movement of ‘On the Town.’ But he was very much aware of the blues. He wanted to write the great American opera. He never did. He had all these ideas, but he was too smart for his own good, and he had too much music of other composers running through his blood. You might laugh at me, but I think the greatest thing he wrote is the simple song at the beginning of the mass. It’s as American as it gets, and it’s just gorgeous. And it’s amazing. Think of Sousa, this Americana stuff that every kid understands, even if they grow up today. This band, this feeling of a band marching or walking by is something in our blood.
And all these old tunes Charles Ives had in his third symphony in ‘Camp Meeting.’ I didn’t go to church that often as a kid, but I knew these hymns, and they’re so American!
EDGE
What’s your approach to rehearsing?
GAFFIGAN
You need structure. I truly believe you need structure in rehearsal, in performance—and then you trust. You let go. The best music making happens with trust. And if the musicians sense you don’t trust them, nothing’s gonna happen. There’s no magic. And I believe in magic. I believe in setting an atmosphere. This is something that I’ve seen the great conductors do. Abbado did it; Silvain does it. Valery Gergiev would do it with certain pieces. You can create an atmosphere just with your eyes, or with your gestures—or with the way you pause, the way you do fermati—and everyone pays attention. I love it. I love my job because I can really make a special feeling in the room by doing very minimal things.
EDGE
You’ve spoken about access to music education in public schools. Is there reason to hope for improvement in this area?
GAFFIGAN
Well, I have hope always, because there always will be kids, and they’re always hungry for information and for knowledge. My fear is that a lot of these young kids won’t get the opportunities I had. I needed an instrument, but my parents could not afford one for me. My dad had to take another mortgage on the house to get me a bassoon. He did not have money for me to go to Aspen, but I won a scholarship. And if I hadn’t won that scholarship, I wouldn’t have gone to Aspen.
I think every kid deserves an opportunity to try music, especially shy kids, kids that have problems communicating with one another. I love sports, so sports was also an outlet for me. I love baseball, so playing baseball was fun. And I got to socialize through baseball and get to know other guys through baseball.
With music, I got to know guys and girls and people from all different backgrounds. Sometimes we didn’t speak the same language, but we could play music together. And for me, that was very emotional and important. And, unfortunately, in today’s world, a lot of the public schools don’t think music is important, because they think it’s only a pastime.
I know many orchestras have great education programs, but they need to not just bus the kids in. They need to go out into the community. Being a musician today in modern America is just as much about educating as it is about performing on stage for your your loving public. So I really hope.
EDGE
Do you foresee a time when young people express their rebellion by embracing the standard repertory?
GAFFIGAN
I think there’s a big uptick in Wagner lovers, younger Wagner lovers.
EDGE
You have described the orchestra in Valencia as a Ferrari.
GAFFIGAN
Oh, damn! Yeah! They’re amazing!
EDGE
So, what is the BSO?
GAFFIGAN
The BSO is like a Bentley. A really classy Bentley. Because it’s beautiful, it’s big, and you can rev it if you want, but it is elegant at all times.
I think this orchestra is very special. And I didn’t know. I haven’t been here. I remember it being good when I was a student. But this one rehearsal, the two and a half hours I just had, were very special for me.
